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What water should I use?

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Santafemad

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Re:What water should I use? 14/05/10 10:04 PM (permalink)
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I have read that distilled water is so pure that it leaches some of the alloy out of the copper - a very small amount of tap water inhibits this reaction in some way - confirmation required from a chemist

PHIL
 
#21
    Ferrysteam

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    Re:What water should I use? 14/05/10 10:17 PM (permalink)
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    Santafemad


    I have read that distilled water is so pure that it leaches some of the alloy out of the copper - a very small amount of tap water inhibits this reaction in some way - confirmation required from a chemist

    PHIL


    What we have to remember in this game is everything is a compromise,as long as we use the right oils and gasses for the right places we won't go far wrong.Using water from most taps aint going to stop you're engines for many years.My kettle is as clean today as it was two years ago when I first bought it and I use it at least five times a day,seven days a week,do we fire our engines that often?
    Allan & Helen, of the Frog and Ferret Railway.



    If you only learn by your mistakes,don't join bomb disposal.


     
    #22
      brianthesnail96

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      Re:What water should I use? 14/05/10 10:36 PM (permalink)
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      Santafemad


      I have read that distilled water is so pure that it leaches some of the alloy out of the copper - a very small amount of tap water inhibits this reaction in some way - confirmation required from a chemist

      PHIL


      Are you sure that's not de- ionised water that was referred to there? Which, seeing as it was quite happy being ionised until some chemist type came along and prodded it, is quite keen to get back to it's ionised state and will attack the copper to do so.

      I can't see- although I admit my knowledge of chemistry is very basic- how adding a small amount of tap water would prevent it occuring regardless.
      Matt not in Plymouth any more. Still Brian after all these years...
       
      #23
        minimans

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        Re:What water should I use? 14/05/10 10:49 PM (permalink)
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        Ferrysteam


        Santafemad


        I have read that distilled water is so pure that it leaches some of the alloy out of the copper - a very small amount of tap water inhibits this reaction in some way - confirmation required from a chemist

        PHIL


        What we have to remember in this game is everything is a compromise,as long as we use the right oils and gasses for the right places we won't go far wrong.Using water from most taps aint going to stop you're engines for many years.My kettle is as clean today as it was two years ago when I first bought it and I use it at least five times a day,seven days a week,do we fire our engines that often?

        You should see the state of my kettle!! I have to defurr it at least every couple of month's ot the spout will clogg to the point of being usless..........................
        "Most garden railwaymen are ordinary folk - Albeit as nutty as fruitcakes"...D. Rowlands
         
        #24
          bobg

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          Re:What water should I use? 14/05/10 11:17 PM (permalink)
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          My kettle is as clean today as it was two years ago when I first bought it and I use it at least five times a day,seven days a week,do we fire our engines that often?

           
          This is probably the best indicator that here is about the state of local water. I have been known with my larger scale, when running at a "new" railway, to check the kettle in the tea room. If your kettle remains clear then you will generally be fine, unfortunately, here, our tap water is from boreholes, and Severn Trent have a habit of changing over when they feel the need. Sometimes our water is so hard it leaves cottonwool like "floaters" in my tipple when the ice cubes melt, so it doesn't do to trust it too far (in my case not at all), but I suppose that's my fault because they do say north of the border, the only thing you should add to good whiskey........ is more whiskey!Party Time
          You don't have to be mad to play trains on the TVBL....but it helps if you're a little loco!



          Being long retired, I've discovered that now I work a lot harder than before, it's just that nobody pays!
           
          #25
            thumper

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            Re:What water should I use? 14/05/10 11:18 PM (permalink)
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            Don't get side-tracked on the rainwater/dehumidifier water issue.  It is a difference without a distinction.  They are the same but for impurities which can be filtered out.  Rain water is nothing more than condensed water vapor and that is what you get from a dehumidifier, condensed water vapor.  Just because it is in your house doesn't mean that one is purer than the other. 
             
            As I said in my earlier posting, wait for a few minutes before you start collecting.  Let the airborne dirt and dirt from your roof top go down the drain before you start collecting it.  If you are worried about the rainwater being acidic, neutralizing the water is a really easy task.  If you have a chemist nearby, ask for suggestions.  As I recall from my college chemistry classes some 45 years ago, Litmus paper will tell you whether the water is acidic or basic. 
             
            Go to the following link for more info.     http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Litmus_test
             
            Regards, and stick with filtered rain water and neutralized if necessary.
             
            Will
             
            #26
              Steveg58

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              Re:What water should I use? 15/05/10 03:07 AM (permalink)
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              [This post was marked as helpful]
              I see a lot of nonsense poster on various forums about water. Essentially there are two problems to worry about.
              1) Boiler scale
              2) Electrochemical replacement

              Boiler scale covers the deposition of any dissolved solids into the boiler and water lines. This reduces the efficiency of the boiler by reducing the heat transfer rate across the deposit. Deposits can also build up to the point where they narrow or block tubing or a piece may flake off and be carried with the flow and lodge somewhere possibly blocking the flow. Boiler scale may be soluble in insoluble. Soluble deposits may be removed by flushing the affected area with hot water. In soluble deposits are most commonly calcium carbonate which is dissolvable using weak acid. Do not be tempted to up the acid strength if the deposit does not dissolve as gypsum (calcium sulfate) or alums will not readily dissolve in acids. Soluble boiler scale happens any time the water contains a lot of disolved solids of any PH. Insoluable boiler scale mostly happens in weakly alkiline solutions.

              Electrochemical repacement is where a reactive metal in the boiler metal is pulled into solution to release a less reactive metal from in the solution. Copper, Iron, and Hydrogen present as ions in the water will all preferentially replace Zinc. This is usually a problem with brass boilers but may also attack silver solders depening on the exact alloy composition of he solder. Often the precipitated metal will also form insoluable boiler scale. The general problem here is the weakening of joints and the boiler structure. The Australian miniature boiler codes prohibit boilers made from certain alloys and also certain compositions of silver solder that are known to be vunerable to this form of corrosion. This usually occers in water that is either stongly alkiline or mildly to strongly acidic.

              Just because the water has neutral PH does not mean it is safe. You have to also know the total dissolved solids and Ionic concentratons.

              Steam distilled water, dehumidifier / dryer water and refrigerator ice are the most pure sources of water but be aware of what the wayer may be in contact with.

              De-ionised water is created by passing the water through two columns filled with ion replacement resins. One that traps all the positive ions and repaclaces them with hydrogen and another that similarly replaces all the negative ions with hydroxide. Negative hydroxide plus positive hydrogen equals water. Bingo pure. Unfortunately the manufacturers can run the colums too long or improperly regenerate the resins and substantial contamination of the product can result.

              Rain water is very environmentally dependent. It can be very pure or it can be quite acid or salty depending on how close to the sea you are and wether you have downwind pollution. It usually contains substantial dissolved gasses which can be a problem in theit own right. The worst rainwater can be far worse than the worst tap water or de-ionised water.

              Tap water always contains substantial dissolved gasses most especially chlorine which can react with copper in a way that very little else can. Tap water is usually treated to be neutral or slightly alkiline which makes it better that rain water near a pollution source. Tap water may contain substantial dissolved salts. Water from the hot tap may also contain substantial dissolved copper and zinc.

              Is any of this a problem ... maybe not. If you have a properly constructed boiler made with good silver solder and you never have to descale your kettle then tap water may be perfectly acceptable. Just boil it first fro a minute or so to drive off the dissolved gasses.

              If you have a heritage boiler of one of unknown provenence or you used cheap silver solder or you regulaly have to descale your kettle then use a purified water.

              If you are paranoid go to a yachting supply store and get a small zinc sacrificial anode. Cut off a small piece and drop it in your water storage container. Anything that will attack your boiler will hopefully be used up attacking the zinc metal.

              Getting an ion concentration meter may also be good if you can afford it. Test stuff and report back here!

               
              #27
                bobg

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                Re:What water should I use? 15/05/10 08:48 AM (permalink)
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                Is any of this a problem ... maybe not. If you have a properly constructed boiler made with good silver solder and you never have to descale your kettle then tap water may be perfectly acceptable. Just boil it first fro a minute or so to drive off the dissolved gasses. If you have a heritage boiler of one of unknown provenence or you used cheap silver solder or you regulaly have to descale your kettle then use a purified water. If you are paranoid go to a yachting supply store and get a small zinc sacrificial anode. Cut off a small piece and drop it in your water storage container. Anything that will attack your boiler will hopefully be used up attacking the zinc metal. Getting an ion concentration meter may also be good if you can afford it. Test stuff and report back here!

                 
                This seems to be the best advice (certainly that I have seen).
                 
                I do think the subject is one that worries most live steamers to some extent, especially those new to it or those that have had a problem unexpectedly.
                 
                I liked the suggestion about the zinc anode, that's one I haven't seen before.
                You don't have to be mad to play trains on the TVBL....but it helps if you're a little loco!



                Being long retired, I've discovered that now I work a lot harder than before, it's just that nobody pays!
                 
                #28
                  thumper

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                  Re:What water should I use? 15/05/10 12:06 PM (permalink)
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                  Since when did postings on this site become "nonsense"?  You've made some errors too, but they don't  justify name calling?
                   
                  "As you sow, ye are like to reap."  Let's keep this site civil.
                   
                  Apologies are deserved!
                   
                  #29
                    bobg

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                    Re:What water should I use? 15/05/10 12:23 PM (permalink)
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                    My sincere apologies Thumper, I should perhaps have been a little more careful with the "cut and paste" the last couple of sentences from the previous post were not required to make my point.
                    You don't have to be mad to play trains on the TVBL....but it helps if you're a little loco!



                    Being long retired, I've discovered that now I work a lot harder than before, it's just that nobody pays!
                     
                    #30
                      brianthesnail96

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                      Re:What water should I use? 15/05/10 12:23 PM (permalink)
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                      M' not sure it was meant personally...

                      Although I'll be the first to admit that my posting above is pretty nonsense, not knowing exactly what deionised water is nor the problems with it and relying on my patchy A level chemistry knowledge.

                      It's always a subject that causes debate, but I don't think there's anything in this thread meant as anything other than civilized debate.
                      Matt not in Plymouth any more. Still Brian after all these years...
                       
                      #31
                        thumper

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                        Re:What water should I use? 15/05/10 12:39 PM (permalink)
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                        Sorry about the confusion I have caused.
                         
                        My comment was directed at the post by STEVEG58.
                         
                        Regards,
                         
                        Will
                         
                        #32
                          thumper

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                          Re:What water should I use? 15/05/10 03:09 PM (permalink)
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                          SOLAR STILLS
                           
                          How about a small solar still to produce your water source?  The cost should be nominal, operationally, it's free, and the end product is contaminant free.  If you have an area for a layout, presumably, you have an area for a small solar still.  It could be portable as well, so if you didn't want to see it, or if your best solar location isn't the best practical location [foot paths, etc.] you could put it out of sight when when your supply is built up and it isn't  needed.    Just a thought.
                           
                          Here's a link for general information on building a solar still:  http://www.motherearthnews.com/Renewable-Energy/1974-09-01/How-To-Build-and-Use-A-Solar-Still.aspx
                           
                          Good luck.
                           
                          Will 
                           
                           
                           
                          #33
                            bobg

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                            Re:What water should I use? 15/05/10 03:13 PM (permalink)
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                            Like it!!!
                             
                            Even if burning hydro-carbons is anti-social, at least the water will be cosher.
                             
                            Will it distill other liquids....like my favourite tipple (Opps! I forgot that's anti-revenue)
                            <message edited by bobg on 15/05/10 03:15 PM>
                            You don't have to be mad to play trains on the TVBL....but it helps if you're a little loco!



                            Being long retired, I've discovered that now I work a lot harder than before, it's just that nobody pays!
                             
                            #34
                              palmerston

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                              Re:What water should I use? 15/05/10 05:07 PM (permalink)
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                              Roundhouse recommends distilled water....
                               
                              If the sightglass gets white then it nessesary to clean the boiler.
                              <message edited by palmerston on 15/05/10 05:10 PM>
                              LGB
                              Massoth Dimax
                               
                              #35
                                bobg

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                                Re:What water should I use? 15/05/10 05:18 PM (permalink)
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                                Whiteness on the gauge glass usually indicates a calcium build up and shouldn't really happen if the water is truely distilled.
                                 
                                I still like the still like the still like the still, idea. When I've a bit of time I might build one and mount it on my garage roof which just happens to face due south. I knew it was that way round for a reason!
                                You don't have to be mad to play trains on the TVBL....but it helps if you're a little loco!



                                Being long retired, I've discovered that now I work a lot harder than before, it's just that nobody pays!
                                 
                                #36
                                  Steveg58

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                                  Re:What water should I use? 16/05/10 07:07 AM (permalink)
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                                  thumper


                                  Since when did postings on this site become "nonsense"?  You've made some errors too, but they don't  justify name calling?
                                   
                                  "As you sow, ye are like to reap."  Let's keep this site civil.
                                   
                                  Apologies are deserved!


                                  Hmm ... you seem to be overreacting. I never said this site and in fact I had a couple of other sites in mind when I wrote this. An a *lot* of nonsense has been written about de-ionised water by people who have no clue how it is produced. A lot of nonsense has also been written about which kind of water should be used without taking any account of regional variations. These are facts. I call no names and make no accusations.

                                  Keeping a site civil is a two way street and it also involves not making aff the cuff accusations of intent before you know that intent was actually present.

                                   
                                  #37
                                    minimans

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                                    Re:What water should I use? 16/05/10 10:18 PM (permalink)
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                                    Why does this subject always end up in an argument?? it's a bit like the old LGB Vs The rest!! It all boils (no pun intended!) down to the advice I made in my first post. Use REAL distilled water if you can get it or filtered rain water, dehumidifier water at second best. it really isn't rocket science and doesn't need to be..........................Paul......................
                                    "Most garden railwaymen are ordinary folk - Albeit as nutty as fruitcakes"...D. Rowlands
                                     
                                    #38
                                      bobg

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                                      Re:What water should I use? 16/05/10 10:33 PM (permalink)
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                                      But I liked the pun!!!!LaughLaughLaugh
                                      You don't have to be mad to play trains on the TVBL....but it helps if you're a little loco!



                                      Being long retired, I've discovered that now I work a lot harder than before, it's just that nobody pays!
                                       
                                      #39
                                        bobg

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                                        Re:What water should I use? 24/07/10 07:46 PM (permalink)
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                                        Further to my promise above in #36, I have now completed my still. If anyone wants further details I will post a full description with more photos.
                                         

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                                        You don't have to be mad to play trains on the TVBL....but it helps if you're a little loco!



                                        Being long retired, I've discovered that now I work a lot harder than before, it's just that nobody pays!
                                         
                                        #40
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