Chipping an LGB 24402 Alpine classic crocodile with sound

Hello folks:
My name is Mohammed and I have been a closet member of this forum for quite some time.  I live in the States and I have a small G scale layout (3m x 5m) in my basement.  My rolling stock is eclectic but mostly European.  I will be sharing a few pictures in the future.
I am about to chip an LGB 24402, the Alpine classic crocodile loco.  The loco is factory-supplied with sound and a direct decoder interface.  For chipping,  LGB recommends a 55020 MTS decoder, a 55030 MTS motor power booster, and a 55026 MST decoder interface cable.  I happen to have the motor power booster, the decoder interface cable, and a 55021 MTS decoder which is not very different from 55020.  I plan to use them to chip the loco. The instructions for connecting them to the loco control board are clear and straight forward .
I have opened up the loco and identified all the connections and I am about to proceed with the installation. I have never chipped a sound equipped loco before, so I am seeking advice before I do it.
First, I noticed a bank of 6 dip switches on the control board. I suspect that some the dip switches must remain in the “on” position and others need to be set to “off” once the decoder is installed.   Can anyone tell me which is which?
Second, I presume that once the decoder is installed, I would be able to control the loco sounds via MTS, but I have no idea how to go about programming the decoder to control the sounds.  Can anyone tell which CVs need to set and to what values.  According to the owner’s manual, the following sounds are available:
1: Whistle
2: Pantograph sound
3: Pantograph sound
4: Sound off/on
5: Departure announcement
6: Brake sound
7: Whistle with echo
8: Sound off/on for air pump, vacuum pump, and main fan
 
Thanks for the help
 
Mohammed

Setting CVs is not needed. They are "preprogrammed" Just connect the parts and try! push button 1  - 8

LGB
Massoth Dimax
Live steam

Thanks Palmerston.  Easy as 1,2,3.   I will do that as soon as I find out how to set the dip switches.

Mohammed

? The manual "

Hint: If this model is equipped

with a decoder, the digital/analog

DIP switches on the loco circuit

board must be set to OFF. The

DIP switches should remain in

this setting, even if the model is

used on an analog layout."
 
 

LGB
Massoth Dimax
Live steam

Hi  Mohammed
 
To  the  best  of  my  knowledge  all dip  switches  should  be  set  to  OFF

Steve

Thanks Steve, I am going to set all dips to off and see what happens.

Thanks Palmerson.  I did read that on page 10 of the manual, but I also read elsewhere, and do not remember where, that in sound-equipped loco some of the dip stwitches must remain in the on position.  I am going to try setting them all off and see what happens. 

Let  us  know  what  happens!
 
What  part  of  the  USA  are  you located  in?
 
There  are   some  GSC members in the  States  you  never  know  there  may  be  one  just  around  the  next  bend!!

Steve

Hello steve:

I live in Baltimore, 35 miles north of Washington.  I will have sometime to work on the loco on thursday and I will let you know what happens.

Thanks for he help.

Mohammed

Hello folks:

I installed the decoder (LGB 55021) , the motor power booster (LGB 55030), and the interface cable (LGB 55026) in to the crocodile and set all dip switches to the ‘OFF’ position.  I programmed the decoder for a new loco address and a starting voltage of 5, using LGB computer interface 55045 and MTS pc program V6. The program recognized the decoder and indicated that the decoder was successfully programmed.
However, When I put the loco on the track and press the forward button on the remote, the loco takes off like a bat out of hell.
 I rechecked the CV values and found that the starting voltage value has changed to 196.  I reprogrammed it and went through the same steps again and I got the same result again.
I tested the decoder or a different loco and there appear to be nothing wrong with the decoder. 
I reinstalled the decoder in the crocodile, rechecked my connections and tried again, and the same thing happened.  I have no idea what is going.   Did anyone experience anything like this before?

I have not tested the sound board yet.

mbendebba


Hello folks:

I installed the decoder (LGB 55021) , the motor power booster (LGB 55030), and the interface cable (LGB 55026) in to the crocodile and set all dip switches to the ‘OFF’ position.  I programmed the decoder for a new loco address and a starting voltage of 5, using LGB computer interface 55045 and MTS pc program V6. The program recognized the decoder and indicated that the decoder was successfully programmed.
However, When I put the loco on the track and press the forward button on the remote, the loco takes off like a bat out of hell.
 I rechecked the CV values and found that the starting voltage value has changed to 196.  I reprogrammed it and went through the same steps again and I got the same result again.
I tested the decoder or a different loco and there appear to be nothing wrong with the decoder. 
I reinstalled the decoder in the crocodile, rechecked my connections and tried again, and the same thing happened.  I have no idea what is going.   Did anyone experience anything like this before?

I have not tested the sound board yet.

Can you post a photograph of the interior.? With the chips in position

Landquart Grusch Bahn
Running RHB on Massoth
I'm the boss in our house. SWMBO gave me permission to say so!
 
Openday 23rd June

Hi, some comments, suggestions....

You say that the decoder is fine when installed in a different loco....I take it all the CV values are fine and as you programmed them (i.e. starting voltage = 5)?

Now the 55030 motor booster takes the motor outout from the decoder and provides enough power to drive 2 motor blocks.  I would suspect that the '30 is at fault here.

The only suggestions that I can realistically come up with would be to

Try a different 55030, or
Use 2 55020/55021 decoders instead.
Use a 3Amp decoder instead - ie Massoth XL/XLS, ESU or LGB 55027.

BTW, I take it you have connected the decoder and booster as per the '30 instructions?
 

Attached Image(s)

Mark
Running trains powered through the rail with DCC from Massoth.
STOP PRESS: A announcement regarding "Blue & White" boxed electronic gizmos is comming soon....

Mohammed

mbendebba


I am about to chip an LGB 24402, the Alpine classic crocodile loco.  The loco is factory-supplied with sound and a direct decoder interface.  For chipping,  LGB recommends a 55020 MTS decoder, a 55030 MTS motor power booster, and a 55026 MST decoder interface cable.  I happen to have the motor power booster, the decoder interface cable, and a 55021 MTS decoder which is not very different from 55020.  I plan to use them to chip the loco.  
Mohammed

 
If you can't get the MTS to work an easier option is to use a Massoth XL decoder.  This is a simpler setup that the MTS rig, plus it can be programmed on the main.  Massoth has LGB MTS interface cables available that will connect the LGB board on the loco to the MTS board.  Even better, no soddering is required; all you need is a small screwdriver.  Also, the Massoth board can identify serial and parallel commands, so its perfectly compatible with an MTS handheld or any other DCC system.  I have used a XLS decoder in my Father's Alpine Classic Croc for years and it has worked without a flaw.

Like David says think I'd go for MassothXL. I find them cheaper than LGB on this side of the pond. £55.00 against £82 for MTS3. Plus you woulld be able to retro fit a Crock sound in stead of the generic lgb one

Landquart Grusch Bahn
Running RHB on Massoth
I'm the boss in our house. SWMBO gave me permission to say so!
 
Openday 23rd June

Philbahn


Like David says think I'd go for MassothXL. I find them cheaper than LGB on this side of the pond. £55.00 against £82 for MTS3. Plus you woulld be able to retro fit a Crock sound in stead of the generic lgb one

 
The Massoth XLS for the Croc uses the same sound files as the LGB engine, so unless you intend to use another company's sound sets there would be little difference in the sounds.  Actually, I would say the sound system in the Alpine Classic is better than the later Massoth units.  The only down side of using the XL is that the sounds must be triggered manually in serial with series of 1's.  However, despite this problem I still find that using the original sound board in the engine driven by an XL decoder makes for a great sound engine. 
 
Philbahn - Are there any other croc sound sets out there?  I know that besides Massoth's XLS that Zimo has croc sounds, but I'm not sure how they compare?

Thank you all for your comments and suggestions.  I have checked and re-checked the instructions and the connections and they all appear to be as they should be.  Unfortunately I do not have another 55030 to use for testing.  I have had the one I used in the croc for quite some time and was hoping to put it to good use.  
 Based on the behavior of the loco, I think that the problem may be related to the connection between the decoder and the loco decoder interface.
First, when I tried to test the sound, I could only get the whistle sound and I could get it with any button I chose for Function 1 (CV 51) 
Second, while the loco runs wild when I press the forward button of the remote once, it goes nowhere when I press the reverse button as many times as I wish. This behavior is reproducible in analogue mode as well, as long as the decoder is installed.  I have not thought about CV54 until now.  I will try to look at it tomorrow.  May be that is where the problem lies.
I will probably end up installing a Massoth XL decoder using Massoth’s cable assembly.  I can use the LGB decoder in another loco.
I will update after I look at CV, more closely  and I will upload some images when I figure out how to do it.
 

RhBGe6/6

Philbahn


Like David says think I'd go for MassothXL. I find them cheaper than LGB on this side of the pond. £55.00 against £82 for MTS3. Plus you woulld be able to retro fit a Crock sound in stead of the generic lgb one

 
The Massoth XLS for the Croc uses the same sound files as the LGB engine, so unless you intend to use another company's sound sets there would be little difference in the sounds.  Actually, I would say the sound system in the Alpine Classic is better than the later Massoth units.  The only down side of using the XL is that the sounds must be triggered manually in serial with series of 1's.  However, despite this problem I still find that using the original sound board in the engine driven by an XL decoder makes for a great sound engine. 
 
Philbahn - Are there any other croc sound sets out there?  I know that besides Massoth's XLS that Zimo has croc sounds, but I'm not sure how they compare?

Sorry David wasn't quite thinking properly. Of course the factory fitted sound is best.
Here's mine

Attached Image(s)

Landquart Grusch Bahn
Running RHB on Massoth
I'm the boss in our house. SWMBO gave me permission to say so!
 
Openday 23rd June

Hello again:
 
I have now figured out how to post images and here they are.   The second image shows the 55021 on the right, the 55030 on the left and the 55026 cable on top. 
 
Phil: are all the dip switches on your croc set to the 'OFF" position?
 
Mohammed

Attached Image(s)

mbendebba


Thank you all for your comments and suggestions.  I have checked and re-checked the instructions and the connections and they all appear to be as they should be.  Unfortunately I do not have another 55030 to use for testing.  I have had the one I used in the croc for quite some time and was hoping to put it to good use.  
 Based on the behavior of the loco, I think that the problem may be related to the connection between the decoder and the loco decoder interface.
First, when I tried to test the sound, I could only get the whistle sound and I could get it with any button I chose for Function 1 (CV 51) 
Second, while the loco runs wild when I press the forward button of the remote once, it goes nowhere when I press the reverse button as many times as I wish. This behavior is reproducible in analogue mode as well, as long as the decoder is installed.  I have not thought about CV54 until now.  I will try to look at it tomorrow.  May be that is where the problem lies.
I will probably end up installing a Massoth XL decoder using Massoth’s cable assembly.  I can use the LGB decoder in another loco.
I will update after I look at CV, more closely  and I will upload some images when I figure out how to do it.
 

That is interesting, I have had very similar problems when I fiited a QSI card to a Bachmann K27, ie bell only no matter which button I pressed and the loco running wild after 2 presses in reverse and half speed with 1 forward press.
the card went back!

It's being so cheerful that keeps me going 

hello keith:

I am certain that the problem is not in the hardware or the connections but in the software, i.e. the programming.  Did you ever resolve the problem?

mbendebba


hello keith:

I am certain that the problem is not in the hardware or the connections but in the software, i.e. the programming.  Did you ever resolve the problem?

No it went back to the supplier after he had a second attempt to resolve it and made it worse!
I am now awaiting an ESU card.
Disappointing because the QSI sounds are superb.

It's being so cheerful that keeps me going 

Hi Mohammed, just opened the crock up. Guess what no dip switches

On the bottom of the locoshould be a gold sticker, the first &last digits give year of manufacture. Mine is 001053 which equates to  2003 1st may. You may also notice that it is an onboard decoder.

On most locos the dip switches sould be turned off when chipped.

What you have done appears to be correct. Suspect it is the motor booster chip thats at fault.
They were discontinued several years ago

Attached Image(s)

Landquart Grusch Bahn
Running RHB on Massoth
I'm the boss in our house. SWMBO gave me permission to say so!
 
Openday 23rd June

Actually just noticed mine is 27420. We're talking about two locos here. Sorry about that

Landquart Grusch Bahn
Running RHB on Massoth
I'm the boss in our house. SWMBO gave me permission to say so!
 
Openday 23rd June

Phil: I also have the 27402 but that one works like a charm.  I am trying to chip the 24402 so that I can do double heading with 27402.  I think that I am going to end up installing either the LGB 3amp decoder or the massoth XL decoder depending on which one is less complicated to install. 
 
Keith: that is always what happen when products from different manufacturers are involved.  Good luck with the ESU. 
 
Mohammed

mbendebba
 
 
Keith: that is always what happen when products from different manufacturers are involved.  Good luck with the ESU. 
 
Mohammed

Mohammed
So far as I can tell mine has been the only QSI card with this problem although I am aware that the lights did not operate correctly with the first QSI cards in the K27.

It's being so cheerful that keeps me going 

Hello again folks:
Well, I have made some progress since my last post.  I disconnected the decoder, the motor booster, and the interface cable; I shrink wrapped all their connectors and reinstalled everything one more time.  I reset the decoder to the factory settings and tested the loco on the track. 
The loco run going relatively fast but at the same speed in both forward and reverse.  The sound is working perfectly well but in serial mode, and It is definitely a great sound.  I guess some of the old LGB sound board will only work in serial mode (or it may be the 55030 that only work in serial mode).  I am determined now to sort this thing out before change course.
I have since discovered that LGB of America recommended two 55021 for chipping this loco while LGB Germany recommended one 55021 and 55030.  More to come!

Keith try sending the sound command in serial mode,

mbendebba


Hello again folks:
Well, I have made some progress since my last post.  I disconnected the decoder, the motor booster, and the interface cable; I shrink wrapped all their connectors and reinstalled everything one more time.  I reset the decoder to the factory settings and tested the loco on the track. 
The loco run going relatively fast but at the same speed in both forward and reverse.  The sound is working perfectly well but in serial mode, and It is definitely a great sound.  I guess some of the old LGB sound board will only work in serial mode (or it may be the 55030 that only work in serial mode).  I am determined now to sort this thing out before change course.
I have since discovered that LGB of America recommended two 55021 for chipping this loco while LGB Germany recommended one 55021 and 55030.  More to come!

Keith try sending the sound command in serial mode,

Hi Mohammed think about a massoth XL chip. Cheaper than LGB for one chip that feeds both motors  and that way it leaves you with aa spare chip.

Landquart Grusch Bahn
Running RHB on Massoth
I'm the boss in our house. SWMBO gave me permission to say so!
 
Openday 23rd June

Hi Phil:
 
I am seriously considering that option.  I have obtained a color coded wiring diagram for an XL installation and it looks as straight foward as the two decoder installation.  However, I am now determined to first discover why my installation is not working when it should and once I have done that I will opt for the single decoder solution. It is more elegant that the 2 decoder solution.

mbendebba


Hi Phil:
 
I am seriously considering that option.  I have obtained a color coded wiring diagram for an XL installation and it looks as straight foward as the two decoder installation.  However, I am now determined to first discover why my installation is not working when it should and once I have done that I will opt for the single decoder solution. It is more elegant that the 2 decoder solution.

Pretty certain it's the booster chip I have spoken about them to one of our people and they recall problems, like I posted the other day It might also be an idea to fit the adaptor 8150701 every cable just plugs in

Landquart Grusch Bahn
Running RHB on Massoth
I'm the boss in our house. SWMBO gave me permission to say so!
 
Openday 23rd June

Phil: I do not think that I can use the Massoth adapter board because I have a single, large PCB that serves as the sound card and the main circuit board;  I do not an onboard decoder in this loco like the one you have in the 27402. The instructions for connecting the XL to the board in my loco seem to be straight foward and relatively simple.

All of the dip switches should be set to off.  If the engine is operating at all under MTS control then the switches are in the off position.

Philbahn


Here's mine

 
And here's mine (actually my Father's).  He rode the real one when it was first painted.
 

 
The models are great, but I think this one had the best sound.
Actually, the original Alpine Classic Croc had the best sound of the LGB's; I think LGB cut the budget by the time the blue croc was released.
 
 

 

Heres mine with the open air wagons going over the viaduct

Attached Image(s)

Landquart Grusch Bahn
Running RHB on Massoth
I'm the boss in our house. SWMBO gave me permission to say so!
 
Openday 23rd June

mbendebba


Hello again folks:
Well, I have made some progress since my last post.  I disconnected the decoder, the motor booster, and the interface cable; I shrink wrapped all their connectors and reinstalled everything one more time.  I reset the decoder to the factory settings and tested the loco on the track. 
The loco run going relatively fast but at the same speed in both forward and reverse.  The sound is working perfectly well but in serial mode, and It is definitely a great sound.  I guess some of the old LGB sound board will only work in serial mode (or it may be the 55030 that only work in serial mode).  I am determined now to sort this thing out before change course.
I have since discovered that LGB of America recommended two 55021 for chipping this loco while LGB Germany recommended one 55021 and 55030.  More to come!

Keith try sending the sound command in serial mode,

Mohammed I am using MTS2 and only have the serial mode.
The card would not work in analogue either!

It's being so cheerful that keeps me going 

RhB: you are absolutely right, I have both the Alpine classic and the Glacier Express, and I definitely prefer the sound of the Alpine classic to that of the Glacier Express.   I like your consist, I need to get one of those baggage cars, I have been searching for one for quite sometime now.
Phil:  that's quite a piece of layout you have there.  RhB model catenary masts are almost impossible to get on this side of the pond, what is the availabity on your side?

mbendebba
 

I like your consist, I need to get one of those baggage cars, I have been searching for one for quite sometime now.

 
The consist is based on the train my Dad rode.
 

 

mbendebba, have you set the Dip switehes to OFF, because in your pica about the circuit board they are in the ON position!  

LGB
Massoth Dimax
Live steam

They come on German ebay from time to time. I'll keep my eyes open if  you want

Landquart Grusch Bahn
Running RHB on Massoth
I'm the boss in our house. SWMBO gave me permission to say so!
 
Openday 23rd June

Mohammed you could try these if you want. Hope the link works.

http://www.champex-linden.de/cl_pr_azb.htm

Landquart Grusch Bahn
Running RHB on Massoth
I'm the boss in our house. SWMBO gave me permission to say so!
 
Openday 23rd June

palmerston


mbendebba, have you set the Dip switehes to OFF, because in your pica about the circuit board they are in the ON position!  

Palmerson< I did set all dip switches to off before I tested the loco.  You are correct the picture was taken while I was doing the installation